Strange mapping on B230FT

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HenrikGM
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Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av HenrikGM »

Ok, this i havent seen before, maybe some can aid a bit to clear it out.

Last year we ran a B230FT, K-kam, Large T3/T4 chinaturbo on stock manifolds, intercooling,piping, etc.
Car ran extremely well, no oddities in the mapping. Very hot exhaust.
Then we changed stuff...

Exatcly the same setup, exept we now have a pipe manifold 42,4mm nonsplit that fits the same turbo, plus a E swanneck intake with stock plenum and throttlebody. Injectors welded in underneath at shallow angle. Added a 3" intercooler and larger piping also.

Now the car is not so nice anymore. It sounds a lot more free that before, likely due to drop in backpressure, but never measured.
On the same fuel map, the car will drop way lean at almost exactly 2000-2100 rpm, and then back to normal again, just to drop way lean again at 4100-4300, and again at 6300rpm. It happends at all MAP pressures. It drops consistently from 12AFR to 19AFR, and of course stumples badly.

I can remove it somewhat by mapping a fuel line at 1950 2000 2100 and 2150 rpm.VE values goes like this:

1950 2000 2100 2150
71% 108% 108% 73%.

Same is needed around 4000rpm. I have never come across something this agressive before, so i doubt this is real.

This basically means the fuel map looks like a mountainrange with 2 walls across the map, one at 2000rpm, and another at 4000rpm.

I need to check camtiming more carefully. What lift should i have on a K-cam at TDC?

Secondly; Is it at all possible that the strange mapping simply is caused strong pulses in the intake giving large spikes in real flow?
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mattias
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av mattias »

Just put the cam at equal lift to get a good baseline going, it's not going to make wonders adjusting it.

What engine management? How are the fuel injectors fired and what size? What trigger system? Ignition system (coils, plugs, wires)?
It sounds more like a mis-fire. If you could provide datalog that would be great.
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Kwirk
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av Kwirk »

Injectors underneath..?
I think you should try to make them point somewhere around valve ...
HenrikGM
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av HenrikGM »

Hi Mattias.

MS2 based ECU. My own main board, well proven.

Triggers from 60-2, through LM1815 adaptive VR conditioner. Well proven setup, no misses. Triggerlog checked. Same setup as last year.

Fuel injectors are Siemens deka 840cc, wired 2+2. Same setup as last year.

Stock ignition coil and module from 940turbo. New plugs, wires,rotor and distributor. No differens made. Same setup as last year.

I would also agree it has the telltales of a misfire, or partial misfire. Will scope the VR signal tomorrow, and compare with the CPU pulse, to check if any pulses are dropping off. I dont expect so, as there has not been any sync errors, but i will check.
Also i will scope the ignition output to the module to check consistency in the troublesome area.

I can remove the "misfire" by dumping fuel at it. Tested it again with flat map, and ran the engine to the part where it leans out and wont pass, then injected brakecleaner into the intake, and immediately the engine continued past. That reaction is consistent.

Will create a few logs tomorrow, and check with scope that fuel PW is actually what MS says.

The injectors are located underneath the intake, in a way that provides a straight shot into the port. They are not firing up the roof.
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Kadett4wd
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av Kadett4wd »

Does problem occur on full throttle and/or on lower openings?
///AMG
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mauser240
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av mauser240 »

Sorry OT but how did you get the trigger circuit to work? What sensor and what ADC-circuit?
//MartinL
HenrikGM
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av HenrikGM »

Kadett4wd skrev:Does problem occur on full throttle and/or on lower openings?
All throttle openings. All MAP values. It is like a vertical wall in the map, that needs minimum 30-50% more VE to stay in a fireable range.


Happens twice, at 2100 and 4200rpm, and seemingly also at 6300 rpm, allthough i did not run it lean at 6300rpm to veryfy.
HenrikGM
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av HenrikGM »

mauser240 skrev:Sorry OT but how did you get the trigger circuit to work? What sensor and what ADC-circuit?
Stock 60-2 flywheel, stock sensor. Nicely plug and play. using the LM1815 adaptive vr conditioner, prettymuch wired in like the datasheet. It need a series resistor of around 1-10k to work, then there are not a single sync loss recorded.
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Kadett4wd
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av Kadett4wd »

HenrikGM skrev:
Kadett4wd skrev:Does problem occur on full throttle and/or on lower openings?
All throttle openings. All MAP values. It is like a vertical wall in the map, that needs minimum 30-50% more VE to stay in a fireable range.


Happens twice, at 2100 and 4200rpm, and seemingly also at 6300 rpm, allthough i did not run it lean at 6300rpm to veryfy.
2100
2100+2100=4200
2100+2100+2100=6300

this sounds like a sinuswave problem, or softwareproblem.
///AMG
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Tommy Luhr
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av Tommy Luhr »

think Kadett is right. i have seen this before. pulses. Try a different camshaft or exhaust.
But if it is a MS ecu. try even reflash that..
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HenrikGM
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av HenrikGM »

Reflashed MS2. No changes.
Replaced MS2, with old software, no changes.
Updated it, no changes.
Swapped manifold back to F intake, kept 840cc injectors, no changes.
Swapped to 465cc injectors, then it was a bit less obvious, but otherwise not really different.

Will try swapping cam back to A-cam.
Kwirk
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av Kwirk »

I assume you made a brand new config ?
I had a config that caused strange problems.

Unistalled all tunerstudio files and configs and started from scratch . All good.
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dundersmurfen
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av dundersmurfen »

This sort of problem i have run into several times. It was oscillations in fuelpressure. Due to hard lines and aftermarket regulator with big heavy parts and spring. Simple solution was a few fet of standard rubber fuelline to absorb vibrations in fuelsystem. There are also fueldampers out there. One on each side of rail should help alot
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HenrikGM
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Re: Strange mapping on B230FT

Inlägg av HenrikGM »

Solved.

So here is the plot:

The fuel pressure clock was giving readings of 3bar at priming, and drop to 2,2 after quite some time. Not unusual.
It was reading a bit on the high side at engine vacuum but nothing alarming. Clock was moving accordingly to vaccum so we though fuel pressure was fine.
Tested for leaking membran and found no fuel leaking.

However....
Tapped the clock after a while, and the clock dropped from 2,2bar to zero. Hmmm
Tested the clock, and found it off by some 0,5bars, and it would stick at 2,2bars untill you tapped the clock.

Replaced the clock, problem still there, but now the fuel pressures was way low, around 2,3bar.
Removed the vacum line and applied suction (orally, yes i know!). With just a bit vaccum nothing happend, but once the membrane lifted, it started leaking fuel(guess where to).

So the fuel pressure regulator has a leak through the membrane which is highly dependant on vacuum, and it modulates the fuelpressure to the injectors way low at certain vacuum levels, but at the same time it drewls fuel directly into the manifold through the vacum line. Once no vacum, the fuel pressure regulator stopped leaking, giving the impression of a ok FPR..

Oh, im getting tired!

Lessons learned; Dont trust the clock if there is only one, secondly, test the FPR with a piece of clear tubing on the vacuumline. It is not enough to test if it leaks stationary. Need to check at all vacumlevels, and here the transparent vacuumline does its trick!

Swap FRP, and it works now.

Not its running, gave 427nm@3600 and 304bhp@6200 rpm on the very first run, with Kcam, large T3T4, E-intake and 42mm exhaust running at 222kpa absolute, with locked ignition at 17degrees.

Time to tidy it all up again, and start tuning.
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