Urspårat 4g63 bygge

[norrback]

sen sejer han: "To be satifsied with this setup i must see at 14.7psi 620-630hp at the wheels."


ok läs här:

Hi,



Yes David 36.75psi – 1234hp, and i am no exited, is just fine.

I can explain in few words what happened.
For maximum power there are few ways to accomplish it.
Low Mechanical efficiency engine and high rpms small displacement, high mechanical efficiency engine lower rpms small displacements. Low efficiency engine big displacement high torque = lower rpm power band, and chemical volumetric efficiency that u combine it to the above combos to add more efficiency.
BMW formula 1 turbo, early 80s uses the 1rst combo. 1600cc Bmw 16v (from stock passenger car) engine destroked to 1500cc so as to have better rod to stroke ratio, 76psi boost pressure to qualification and 66psi – 55 running the race with 11.800rpms and 1450hp from 1500cc engine displacement. That its old technique of adding efficiency from an engine rev it so high. Most common engines like 4g63 runing 57-65% mechanic efficiency. That means per 1000cc displacement they can move and burn 65% of his displacement. Assume to understand it better 65hp per 1000cc. From the 2ltr 4g63 we have 65 x 2 = 130hp if u remove the turbocharger for example.
Hondas s2000, k20s etch from stock efficiency running higher levels. If u make the efficiency higher then if u boost this engine u will have it double or triple or depends the boost pressure that u use. If u have 130hp N/A engine and boost it to 14.7 psi and have intake air temperature the same exactly then u will have 260hp. If u boost the 130hp engine to + 30psi then u multiply the 130 x 3 (1 intake cylinder pressure 14.7) + 30psi = 390hp. Look it now, its like an evo8 running actually 30psi. Thats all with normal volumetric efficiency. Take the same example now to an s2000 honda engine. 220hp x 14/7 psi = 440hp, 220hp x 3 (1 intake cylinder pressure 14.7) + 30psi = 660hp when the stock 4g63 have 390hp at the same boost and same displacement.
As u can see the difference just making the engine little more efficient is dramatically different. My 4g63 engine running 133% Vol eff. and the best point is when i boost it the mechanical efficiency stays the same but the volumetric goes double or triple or any boost pressures i desire goes x (boost pressures).
The dyno at my first post was from a ford 1940cc engine 4 cylinder 16v engine that i made at 2006 that’s engine efficiency’s was 185%, i had 213hp per 1000cc displacement.
David here is the point that i am not happy with 36.75psi – 1234hp, if my old cosworth had 416hp N/A from 1950cc before 4 years, (now a stock Suzuki bike gsxr 1000 2008 model, have from 998cc +190hp (73.4mm piston with 59mm stroke) = 190hp per ltr but with 12.5:1 comp ratio, and as we had 17:1comp ratio we had more efficient engine but much more loses from friction and weight of moving masses. The weight of our 92mm piston at 12000rpms weight to the crank almost 4.5tones and the bike just below from one tone.
If i make the 4g63 running same efficiency look what will happen: 1950cc ford engine 416hp > 4g63 stroked to 2150cc (11% stroked) = 416hp x 11% = 457hp x 14.7 psi = 914hp and at 15psi boost pressure i will have 1371hp (457 x 3 (30psi). I had now at 36.75 psi – 1234hp, and i can have exactly 1.599hp, at the same pressure exactly, making my engine more efficient.
Lets assume that we forget the chemical efficiency that its important ( imagine the nitro methane race funny cars have N/A 4000hp and when running 90% nitro methane double their engine vol efficiency goes to 8000hp directly.
A quick explanation of engine Vol Efficiency = cylinder heads job, how quick the engine can burn the mixture per a certain time period. How we can moving masses from the same displacement. 200hp from a 2ltr engine is 80-85% efficiency. 200hp from 4000cc engine is 35%-40%. The percentage of hp per efficiency varies depends of the mechanical characteristics of each engine. Bore to stroke ratio, rod length to stroke, pistons speed m/sec, and of course my worst nightmare the friction.
Imagine to 85.5mm 4g63 piston with normal 2 compression rings and one oil, at 1000rpms we have 25hp and loses from piston friction 0.7hp and when we have at 7000rpms 160hp and 37hp friction loses, the friction loses are not just double per 1000rpms. The old cosworth engine with 416rpms that i rev it 12000rpm i should have at 11.200 that i have the maximum horsepower (412hp) 490-500hp.
I had 92mm bore piston and the friction was 10% more than the evo. Another for friction is the crank angle at ATDC – piston to wall surface, the mean piston velocity and how much time the piston stays down and the acceleration in m/sec2 from the ATDC to the BTDC that we can calculate it also to G., Our pistons are designed to reach instantly at 33m/sec depends the size the weight and the friction and the fuel type.
Making big steps adding efficiency to an engine is the cams. I can write for ours about this subject but let’s be quickly as i can. I have test hundreds of cams – combos etc.
Cams is the referee between intake and exhaust, the best way to design a camsaft is to know ur engine very well, ur target boost level the amount of the lbs/min per boost level to the intake port, and what rpm band u want ur horsepower, the cylinder head flow characteristics in cfm, and much more details that can i explain to a new detailed post. U must combine and manage to the velocity with the speed of sound with waves so as to have full benefits of this phenomenon. U can add extra presure to the cylinder from the stock 14.7psi at sea level by making working with it.
The intake valves open each every 720 degrees rotation of the engine and exhaust too, the intake wave of the sound travels and must hit the valve closed and return to the intake plenum twice so as when at the next rotation of the engine the wave returns again to have extra pressure velocity inside the chamber when then fully opens.
That will add more positive pressure that can reach almost +25psi bar extra with out using the turbocharger. U can easy calculate the speed wave as the speed of sound travel with 343m/sec. U can divide the runner length so as to calculate the runner length from the valve to the throttle, for example when we want this phenomenon starts at 5000rpms we must make the runners 412mm, when we want the wave at 10000rpms we must make it 206mm total length more rpms less runner length. This is with the second wave style theory, we can also work with 4 theory as we work at wrc cars and F3 racecars and superbikes. When we want to calculate this exactly we must know the air temperature when gets high the speed of sound from 343m/sec goes higher, when we calculate it with 20celcium and we have 343m.sec to divide at 50celcium goes to 360m/sec to divide. Another important vary is the mass per molecule of air that its measured kg/kmol, its too important as well.
Exact phenomenon its at the exhaust side as well. Intake with out combined harmonically with the exhaust is nothing, u can add positive pressures if u don’t combined with the exhaust. I try to make it as simply and quick and understood i can.
The other and important too is the speed that give to the valve. The acceleration that gives to the valve when opens and when closes, fluid dynamics and wave dynamics have nothing to do now, the same cam with same degrees at 0.1mm and same valve list can be 2 or 3 or 4 times slower than a different design cam but with same overall characteristics but different ramp rate. Most common cam rates are between 2-2.5g rated so as to work for unlimited time with the stock “soft” valve train. Most drag racing ramps for mitsubishi are between 3-3.8g. The G is the acceleration that gives to the valve at the same time period. When the ramp rate goes high the problems start with the valve train components. The weight of the valve from 3g and above hit the valve seat so rough that can brake it instantly. Except of this the valve hit the seat and with out make “suspension” above the seat makes loosing power from the loss of jumping. We design cams that can reach 8gs instantly, depends the valve train.

[norrback]

Tror det är från 'sonic' testade av kanaler.
14.7psi som han surrar om.. är det inte skrivfel då?
att det är absolut tryck han pratar om?

det var i ett mail vi diskuterade där han sa att det är möjligt att få 15psi övertryck...låter som en för exakt siffra också.

/Andre'

[norrback]

frekvenserna ha skriver är ju varvtalet i HZ men hur använder man dom till att öka trycket i kanalen? helmholz syns inga såna lösningar på bilder iaf.

/Andre'

[Martin H]

här har vi en tråd om ve kadett
http://forum.savarturbo.se/viewtopic.ph ... ve&start=0

[Kadett4wd]

Bortse från Cossiemotorn, den har jag inte studerat värden på, jag vat bara att bilen var snabb som den satt i,, riktigt snabb också.
Jag tror det är möjligt att nå dessa effekter ur en kombo likt den där 4g63 maskinen vid 'låga' laddtryck.
Jag har sett det förr vid ett flertal tillfällen, men just nu försöker skallen rota fram ett exempel och det slår stopp i minnesbanken *S*

Den här dskussionen hade Tommy Luhr på volvoforumet för nåra år sedan.
Hans 16v maskin kunde absolut inte ge effekten enligt teoretikerna, men likförbenat...
Det är nåt ni teoretiker inte inte får med i beräkningarna, nåt saknas
Men enkelt förklarat, möjligheterna för att nå fyllnadsgrad ändras då man kör överladdat, ibland så sjukt att teorierna sätts ur spel.
Iallafall med de inputs man har att tillgå till formlerna.
Det kanske ska in fler inputs i formeln för att kunna räkna på det.


Här är en C20XE med 916hk på hjulen vid ganska lågt laddtryck,

Nu kommer jag tyvärr inte ihåg laddtrycket exakt, men jag vill minnas det var kring 2bar

Min egna maskin.. inte i de nivåerna då jag är nöjd med effekten jag har.
effekt/vikt förhållandet är bättre än polarens 9sec Audi,, så jag är nöjd.
Men snabba siffror:
ca 250-275hk sugmaskin, lite beroende på dagsformen då jag inte mappat lufttemptabellen nå vidare.
men vid 1.65bars laddtryck vid 7000rpm mosar jag i den sås för 765hk.
den går då på Lambda 0.77(E85)
Mao något fett, men troligen i krokarna kring 730hk på 1.65bar.
Skulle jag montera en typ 76mm Borg Warner tror jag att jag skulle nå 1000+ på 2bar utan större bekymmer faktiskt.
Men då försvinner mitt fina register.

[Martin H]

med högre densitet så får du högre rörelseenergi på massan men det krävs också mer att sätta den i rörelse och du har också ett mottryck
som bromsar så det känns som det i bästa fall borde bli +-0. ang diskussionen om tommys motor så handlade det väl bara om folk som
inte fattade att det går att få ut 500hk ur en std b234 bara man laddar tillräckligt.

[Kadett4wd]

Här är bromspapper från Cossien:
Obs!! jag säger itne det går,, jag bara ramla över de här bilderna i jakt på info:



Bilen:




Lite text jag fann på PassionFord:

We are presenting today a separate Escort MKII which runs mainly on sirkoui. We are presenting today a separate Escort MKII which runs mainly on sirkoui. The lucky owner of the Escort is very possible Spyros Papadopoulos of Kalamata. The lucky owner of the Escort is very possible Spyros Papadopoulos of Kalamata.

"Our goal was to build a motorized system with maximum efficiency by 1999cc, which is the upper limit allowed in a class struggles" says Spyros and continues: "Our goal was to build a motorized system with maximum efficiency by 1999cc, which is the upper limit allowed in a class struggles "says Spyros and continues:

"The best motors, which brought in MKII context was the Cosworth. So we started and looked for the motors that what would be required to pay the maximum from construction materials and geometry of motors. As the motorized design perspective has to pay more than 250Hp per litre in the form of air. "The best motors, which brought in MKII context was the Cosworth. So we started and looked for the motors that what would be required to pay the maximum from construction materials and geometry of motors. As the motorized design perspective has to pay more than 250Hp per litre in atmospheric form.

Thus, we designed the geometry of motors can be operated until 13,000 rpm Thus, we designed the geometry of motors can be operated until 13000 rpm without problem. without problem. The materials, of course, chose not exist in trade and we have special construction. The materials, of course, chose not exist in trade and we have special construction.


The motorized ypokyvistike to 1914cc (92mm x 72mm). The motorized ypokyvistike to 1914cc (92mm x 72mm). The bieles longer than a specific type of aluminum alloy. The bieles longer than a specific type of aluminum alloy. The pistonia Supertech is also a special alloy and resistance until 35m/sec linear speed with 17:1 compression. The pistonia Supertech is also a special alloy and resistance until 35m/sec linear speed with 17:1 compression. The strofalos steel is made with our own standards and geometry. The strofalos steel is made with our own standards and geometry. The valves are titanium, while Supertech ekkentroforoi is also special order. The valves are titanium, while Supertech ekkentroforoi is also special order.

The supply of oil arrange a dry casings. The supply of oil arrange a dry casings. The tetrapetalouda Our bodies are built, and the system of export (octopus - evaporation). The tetrapetalouda Our bodies are built, and the system of export (octopus - evaporation).

We use more brain Haltech E8 with sequential spraying. We use more brain Haltech E8 with sequential spraying. As understand there are many features of motors, which, while having great interest, we can not disclose. As understand there are many features of motors, which, while having great interest, we can not disclose.

In setting the dynamometer, 412hp motors attached to 11500 rpm In setting the dynamometer, 412hp motors attached to 11500 rpm and 28.18 kgr torque at 9700 rpm and 28.18 kgr torque at 9700 rpm with fuel from MotoGP. with fuel from MotoGP. We believe that the motors that is not in final form, and one in the near future, with some changes, we will increase the ippodynami of aspiring to 480 Hp at 12800 rpm We believe that the motors that is not in final form, and one in the near future, with some changes, we will increase the ippodynami of aspiring to 480 Hp at 12800 rpm

Our objective was to build a motorized global concern that compete mainly very good atmospheric Japanese motors. Our objective was to build a motorized global concern that compete mainly very good atmospheric Japanese motors. Ekmetalleftikame a very large percentage of the speed of sound and the 2 and 4 the impulsive wave. Ekmetalleftikame a very large percentage of the speed of sound and the 2 and 4 the impulsive wave. Of course there is still a small margin, which if the exhaust will overcome 250Hp per litre. Of course there is still a small margin, which if the exhaust will overcome 250Hp per litre. In this case, however, the motors will work marginal and will not be suitable for speeds match. In this case, however, the motors will work marginal and will not be suitable for speeds match.

In terms of transmission have chosen a isogranazo Quaife with the rear differential also Quaife. In terms of transmission have chosen a isogranazo Quaife with the rear differential also Quaife.

The level of improvement in the area has risen enough and continues to grow day by day. The level of improvement in the area has risen enough and continues to grow day by day. I think now we have something to zilepsoume from foreign veltiotes. I think now we have something to zilepsoume from foreign veltiotes. I also believe that the level of improvement in Greece, if not the best, one of the best in the world. I also believe that the level of improvement in Greece, if not the best, one of the best in the world.

Spyros Panopoulos - Spiros Papadopoulos Spyros Panopoulos - Spiros Papadopoulos
Extreme Tuners - Papadopoulos Power Extreme Tuners - Papadopoulos Power

annan text skriven av han själv:(vilken jag direkt ser att han kan mena annat än han skriver.
Recently i finish a race car with cosworth NA engine. I will tell u about this project so as to see in action the theories that i told u to my previus posts.
The engine is ford cosworth NA 2ltr 16v the stock form (90.8mm x 77mm).
The customer wants the maximum power of this engine no matter the cost.
The car is race car so we must stay until 1999cc engine displacement to stay in the regulations.
So the only way as i told u before is to make it revs very very high. I design the engine configuration and what parts would i use. After when finish the theory that i thought i start gothering the parts and some of them i make it special order.
The result of the project is: 412hp at 11700rpms and 28.1kgr of torque at 9750rpms and revlimit is 12600rpms.
Its world record of an engine below 2000cc NA.

Some specs: 92mm piston with 72mm stroke, custom length aluminum rods, supertech special order pistons,
custom design 4340 billet crank, nicasil sleeves, yellow titanium valves, custom berilium seats, custom billet cams, compression ratio 17,5:1, Haltech e8 managment system. 60mm throtlle bodies, and 90mm exsaust pipe.

I manage to use the wave sound efect perfect. So i had 1.3bar extra pressure at the intake port and 2.4bar at the exsaust port.

Dessa 1.3bar är nog 1.3bar ABSOLUT

filmer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Sa8Ki4U ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1Z54scAjhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_IngzzzsnE&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0GLhjyphOU

Varvar gör den iaf =)

[Kadett4wd]

med högre densitet så får du högre rörelseenergi på massan men det krävs också mer att sätta den i rörelse och du har också ett mottryck
som bromsar så det känns som det i bästa fall borde bli +-0. ang diskussionen om tommys motor så handlade det väl bara om folk som
inte fattade att det går att få ut 500hk ur en std b234 bara man laddar tillräckligt.

Får man igång tåget så stannar det inte för lite motstånd
Jo men Tommys maskin var inte riktig heller enligt teoretikerna komemr jag ihåg.

[norrback]

med högre densitet så får du högre rörelseenergi på massan men det krävs också mer att sätta den i rörelse och du har också ett mottryck
som bromsar så det känns som det i bästa fall borde bli +-0. ang diskussionen om tommys motor så handlade det väl bara om folk som
inte fattade att det går att få ut 500hk ur en std b234 bara man laddar tillräckligt.

Får man igång tåget så stannar det inte för lite motstånd
Jo men Tommys maskin var inte riktig heller enligt teoretikerna komemr jag ihåg.

jag har knappast sagt att den inte skulle fungera, tvärt om isåfall. Jag är egentligen inte intresserad för tillfället av turbomaskiner, utan mest för sugmotorer. Tyckte bara att dom sifrorna ha visar låter stora, men vist...om han kan bygga en 416hk motor av en 2liters cosworth som inte ser exlusivare ut än sådär , så kan han ju överladda en motsvarande och få dom efekterna vi ser. MEN hur gör ingen annan det inte ens F1, motoGP, eller dragracing i USA där det finns pängar att få? Kanske man bara inte kan ta in det i USA? Eller är det bara så att han har så mycket pängar att röra sej med att han kan använda tillräckligt lätta delar rakt igenom?

Undrar hur mycket högre IMEP dvs. max cylindertryck han har jämfört med nån honda k20 tex. med 450hk i motorn på metanol och 2.6 liter. Tar han igen allt på att han får så låg FMEP (friktion) med alla lätta delar månne?

Vad tror du Patric?

/Andre'

[Kadett4wd]

Jag tror det finns mycket att hämta i att sänka friktion och lätta de roterande massorna.
Jämnför bara med motorcyklar idag. 1000cc maskiner.
De har rätt fräna nivåer på effekterna med så milda kamaxlar som de har.

Jag pratade för flera år sedan med en Dragracingputte på tullinge.
De körde en Suzuki 1100 GSXr,, upptagen till 1300cc.
Den skulle ge enligt han 285hk
Det blir 438hk på 2000cc
Motorn hade dessutom inte högre varvtal för toppeffekten än std.

Om han snacka goja vet jag inte,, men maskinerna är snabba.
De hade också brutalt komp kommer jag ihåg.
18-1 om jag minns rätt.

kolla specen på en annan prostock bike:

Engine: Suzuki GSX 2-Valve Displacement: 1500 CCM
Horsepower: 314 BHP @13,600 rpm
Torque: 141ft-lbs @11,000rpm
Carburetion: 4-50mm Lectron by Rogspeed
Transmission: 6-speed Liberty Gears
Cylinder Head: Vortex by Ward
Pistons: MTC Engineering
Cases: OEM Suzuki

[Martin H]

nu bromsar du inte tåget med att köra på en personbil utan med samma massa som du fyller på med. så du kommer frontalkrocka med ett
annat godståg och då tar det stopp även om tåget är ett tåg. lite så tänker jag.

[SWR]

Å få 17.5:1 i en YB med så kort slag er en jobb i seg selv...

[norrback]

Å få 17.5:1 i en YB med så kort slag er en jobb i seg selv...

fick ut via mail att han har 3525mm2 mantel area på insug och 2040mm2 på avgas. På 92mm borr har han kanske 38mm ventiler (vad ryms i en cw?) ? Med 38mm ventiler och 14.8mm lyft får man ca. 3525mm2 mantel area.

Får man mycket mera kraft i pulstuningen om man har större volym efter minsta stället?

SWR, vad får du/man en cw topp att flöda på 15mm med 38mm ventiler, hur stor MCSA kan man göra innan man har hål?



/Andre'

[SWR]

Å få 17.5:1 i en YB med så kort slag er en jobb i seg selv...

fick ut via mail att han har 3525mm2 mantel area på insug och 2040mm2 på avgas. På 92mm borr har han kanske 38mm ventiler (vad ryms i en cw?) ? Med 38mm ventiler och 14.8mm lyft får man ca. 3525mm2 mantel area.

Får man mycket mera kraft i pulstuningen om man har större volym efter minsta stället?

SWR, vad får du/man en cw topp att flöda på 15mm med 38mm ventiler, hur stor MCSA kan man göra innan man har hål?

/Andre'

38.6mm ventiler går inn, for vet det har vært bremset 274 hk med høy-komp NA på 1040mm² MCSA, ved 7400 rpm. Veldig store ventiler til det lille MCSA-arealet.. og mye effekt til så lite MCSA.

Man får til 2x 28.5mm MCSA kanaler, altså 1275mm². Med sveising av taket i kanalen og endring av innsugsflensen har jeg fått til 2x 31mm MCSA på den, 1510mm².

Aldri prøvd med 38mm ventiler selv, men 37mm ventiler på 14mm har vært rundt 280cfm/28". Mantelarealet i Cossien som vi bygger her - sakte men sikkert - er 3348mm², så vi får se.. den skal jo også ha peak hp på 10500 rpm og er på 2.2 liter. Men 9.8:1 og ikke 17+ : 1 CR..

[Kristoffer Helle]

Har inte "plomberingen" i f1 nogot at seja? dom kjör ju med "limiter" på luftintaket